Rockheadedmama and I got into a debate during my last education post about when the right to an education began. I think what we agreed (if we did agree) is that the forefathers had it on the mind, but public education did not exist as we know it (nationwide) until the late 1800s. Naturally, some states got it right earlier than others. Thomas Jefferson's Virginia (he was an educational enthusiast) and Massachusets (home of MIT and Harvard) were the gold standard quickly following the nation's birth.
The history of anything is always interesting to me and I learned a lot from our exchange. However, that is not my concern. It has been a bad couple of weeks for me on the education front and it's enough to cause me to wonder whether I should stay in it. It's about going from place to place and seeing the same issue crop up. Now that I am at the elementary level the problem seems even more pronounced. The simple question is at what point do you forfeit your right to an educate?
We have students at my school that are known bullies. The students know it, the teachers know it, and the administrators know it. Many of them are involved in fights or what is labeled "aggressive behavior" on nearly a weekly basis. I love the term "aggressive behavior." It reminds me of watching minor league hockey during my college days. Players would get into fights and the referees called it "roughing." Roughing drew a two minute stay in the penalty box. Aggressive behavior seems to be the school equivalent.
I think this issue became more powerful for me the day I became I parent, but it has always been important to me. My allegiance has always been with the students that show up and obey the rules more often than not. There is a lot of room for forgiveness in the education world, but watching these things go as they have makes me wonder where our collective heads are. We have students we know that terrorize other students on a daily basis and yet we never seem to get rid of them. Yet, if you show up with some Advil you better get yourself a good lawyer if you want to stay in school.
We often talk about everyone having a right to an education. I firmly believe that, but I also believe that my child has a right not to be terrorized in school. I think my child has a right to sit in a classroom without another child clowning around all day. If the teacher, administrators, and most of all, the parents prove unable to get that child to behave then that child needs to be placed in an alternative environment. This just doesn't happen nearly enough. Some people choose to look on it as giving up on a child. I choose to look at it as investing in the other twenty or so students in the class. They deserve the best we can give them too.
Appreciate your daughter's spirit... :O) The message eventually will sink in, but it will be tempered with the notion of patience and an inkling of fairness and reasonableness.
I understand that of what you speak. Our biggest battle at home with the three year old is getting her to accept no. We have that battle in our schools as well. We are making progress with her, but the progress is intermittent. She has been babbling for three days about the fact that one of the daycare teachers told her no. The only thing we have said (over and over again) is that the teacher has the right to tell her no and must do so sometimes for her (our daughter's) safety.
However, I am keenly aware of the difference between punishment and discipline. Discipline could be loosely defined as following the directives of those in charge of us. Punishment is what happens to us as a result of choosing to disobey those directives. We get kids that are mad at the directives and don't know how to express it properly. That sounds like what was going in the case you described. I try to make it clear that students are being punished for how they chose to express disagreement with a directive or the fact that they simply did not follow it. Punishment is the result of a bad choice. Rewards are the results of good choices.
Of course, one of the reasons I have been so pissed off lately is because I have been put in a position where I frequently punish students. As a counselor, that goes against my role and my training. Heck, it goes against my very nature. However, that is a different story for a different day.
Scott,
I'm with you, but this is the case...my father would beat my ass WITHOUT asking questions if I got in trouble in school. I still took my chances based on what I viewed as right and wrong. I know that sounds weird but even now I always expect my daughter to present a 4th grade level of logic supporting her position when we disagree.
My opinion on this goes beyond the scope of the educational process but ultimately I believe our culture's child rearing conventional wisdom is doing major damage to the mental health of our kids. I think one of the bottom issues is the confusion between 'discipline' and 'punishment' and burgeons from there.
In spending time with my daughter at her school and with her classmates I covertly watched a problem student interact with her teacher. The glaring realization was that this young girl was blindly angry. I want of necessity to point out that this girl is a middle class anglo, so not to confuse the issue of minority problems. The girl's teacher asked her to throw some of her trash in a receptable and the girl at first refused, then complied, then undid the work when the teacher was no longer present...Anger was the overriding emotion emanating from this young child. And that is the general issue with our society. There is plenty of empirical work done to show that 'war' is a violence catalyst in any culture touched by it and, of course, violence is the by-product of anger.
I suppose this is becoming normal, but I had another today that refused to cooperate (we were all in the gym). He tried to push me out of the way so he could get away. Last year, he bit me on the hand. After trying to push me away, he ended up hitting another teacher. He was sent hom today, but he will be back this week. This is a first grader (repeating) we are talking about here.
Here's the thing. I wasn't a perfect kid although I was admittedly very good. I had moments where I was a smart ass. Still, I always did what the teacher asked when the moment of truth came. I may have argued once or twice, but when push came to shove, I did what the teacher asked. I suppose that is because I knew my parents would back the teacher.
What floors me is the fact that it seems like kids refuse to do what I ask more and more often. There is a difference between me asking a student to be quiet and then them talking two minutes later. That's a short attention span. I'm talking flat out refusal. That was insubordination in my day and that was a free ticket to the woodshed (at least at home).
I suppose it is partly the environment that I am in. More on this later.
All bullies need is a really good ass whuppin'. NOthing else will work.
There are different kinds of misbehavior. Obnoxious and sarcastic really bothered me early in my career but not so much now. I've learned to deal with that. The ones I am referring to are the bullies. I hate bullies. I think what you point to is the fact that some kids need a number of strategies before we find stuff that works. I also accept that different kids connect with different teachers. I've had "bad" kids that connected with me. There are some that connect with no one.
Scott,
you're really making me feel bad...I was one of those bad kids but I got away with a lot, I guess because most of my behavior was just obnoxious at best. I had one teacher threaten me to teach the class if I thought I could do better. I took her up on her offer. Ouch, that was a mistake...she kept me after class and ripped my buttocks. Another teacher used to like trade sarcastic jokes, which was a mistake on his part because I lost respect for him. The one teacher that really snapped me out of it was the one that took me to the principal's office and said she didn't want me coming back. That was both humiliating and sobering. Gawd, I hated that woman but I did settle down for the rest of the year. Yeah, you guessed it, she was an English teacher. I did find another teacher that was 'spiritually' a much different person and I ended up that same year as one of the editorial staff on the school's creative writing publication.
So what's my point...hell, I don't know, I forgot. This is bringing up some painful memories for me.
Funny you should bring that up...You wanna know the meaning of baaad. My older brother spent 2 years in a military school and beat them. He was finally kicked out...i'm serious.
He walked away with sharpshooter skills and mean as hell. He's still a gun fanatic, btw... owns .45s, machine guns, pearl handled revolvers etc and though he was a successful business guy for years is now working as a 'screw' in a California prison. Yep, that's my brother.
Two words Scott.......from "A Few Good Men"....."CODE RED".
Don't get me wrong. When I was in school, we had kids who acted up. But (if you reference my previous posts) they were all "handled". It bothered us just a much a it did the teacher. Not so much for the diminished education we were getting, but a teacher who is "pissed" is frequently "pissed" at everybody. Remember my story about Miss Alsobrook and the erasers. I said she had an arm like Goose Gossage. Gossage didn't ALWAYS hit what he was he was aiming at.
Also, don't misunderstand my intent. Many of our students want these students out of their class more than we do. There are many days when I have 18-20 students sitting relatively quiet with one or two clowning. I redirect them and give them second and third chances while the other students ask me to call the office. I just had two today in one class. The acting principal is afraid to send them away because they may fail TAKS. Guess what? They're failing anyway because they don't care. How many more will fail because they can't focus through the shenanigans? I think it was Spock who said, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."
Theoretically a teacher can request the removal of a student and it must be honored (if possible). However there are some situations (you are the only one teaching the class) where it cannot happen. Administrators usually try to talk you out making such demands, but it can be made.
Adults behave just as poorly, the children merely wish to emulate.
I attended someone's birth day recently. Most of the guests were 40+. After the first few hours everyone was pretty intoxicated and acting like high school kids. The problem is systemic and goes far beyond kids misbehaving in school.
Respect is always what we want but some kids just don't get there. If you get those other kids out it is a lot easier to have a fun environment with mutual respect.
Scott, I am curious, can a teacher go to the principal and say, "Get little Johnny Dangerously out of my class or I quit?"
SSTM: I am NOT an educator. But I WAS a kid. A BOY kid. And I am telling you, through my posts below, we had NO discipline problems when I was in school, here in HISD. And I am telling WHY. PLease, we haad respect for our BECAUSE that's the way we were raised. That is no longet true. Scott tells you that. For boys, especially teenage boys, absent the aforementioned respect, discipline can only be achieved by fear and coercion. Why do you think BAD boys end up in "military schools".
We have gone WAAAAAY too far in letting the inmates run the asylum. IF displined behavior cannot be encouraged, it must be forced upon the recipients or they must be removed from the environment.
SSTM: I am NOT an educator. But I WAS a kid. A BOY kid. And I am telling you, through my posts below, we had NO discipline problems when I was in school, here in HISD. And I am telling WHY. PLease, we haad respect for our BECAUSE that's the way we were raised. That is no longet true. Scott tells you that. For boys, especially teenage boys, absent the aforementioned respect, discipline can only be achieved by fear and coercion. Why do you think BAD boys end up in "military schools".
We have gone WAAAAAY too far in letting the inmates run the asylum. IF displined behavior cannot be encouraged, it must be forced upon the recipients or they must be removed from the environment.
Scott wrote: "..we need to get the parents to fear expulsion. If they know they will either have to stay home with Johnny or fork over the thousands of dollars to send him to private school they will become strict real fast."
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Sounds to me, Scott, like probolem solved.
Scott, fear and respect are two completely different animals. I'm really distressed reading some of the comments here. Anyone who would be happy just having kids fear them so the kids behaved probably should consider another line of work.
A teacher or administrator must have multiple tools in the toolbox. The problem is that that genie isn't going back in the bottle. Fear is necessary no matter how it gets across. Kids now know they can work the system. They have no fear. More than fearing the paddle, we need to get the parents to fear expulsion. If they know they will either have to stay home with Johnny or fork over the thousands of dollars to send him to private school they will become strict real fast.
I can only speak for myself, but I had two younger sisters. My dad sat me down when they went to school and explained to me that MY job as their big brother was to stick up for them and defend them. I took those orders seriously. And, although I was not a big guy, my sisters knew that the phrase, "If you don;t leave me alone, my big brother will beat you up." Worked on BOTH sexes. Only had to "interface" with one bully. When you are in the fifth grade and the bully is in the third grade...Well, let's just say "problem solved."
Oh, and for you regulars, notice I didn't bother to mention (again) Mrs. Wagner (Algebra) and her 12 inch, steel reinforced ruler. Even the defensive line of the football team didn't mess with her.
Scott wrote: "For the record, I am against corporal punishment".
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WRONG! I can't speak for girls. Cuz' I ain't one. But boys NEED the threat of corporal punishment hanging over them 24-7 for a good bit of their shoolin' years.
Now I'm not saying you have to whup on them kids every time they get just a little out of line. BUT, you absotively have to make them THINK you will.
In elementary school, we had a one-armed principal. 'Nuf said. Junior High, mean, fat, ugly coaches and Mr. Duff, Assistant Principal, 6 ft 5in, 250 lb. Could lift a small car. And in HS, coaches who would whack you with a whistle strap and leave a mark, one who would spit tobacco juice at you, and all of them including assistant principal Fred Pepper, weilded respect and fear.
THAT THERE IS A FACT! And if that doesn't work they MUST be removed from that environment. Probably permanently.
What is particularly disheartening for me is the fact that I see these kids in classes two times every three weeks (once every seven school days). I've coached them and coached them to approach a teacher, me, or other adult on campus if this is going on. I hit it hard because of the schoolyard rule you speak of. What angers me is that my efforts are working. Kids are approaching me and immediately forward it to the administration. What do they do? Virtually nothing. I've been at this game long enough to know that it might be as simple as a spineless administrator. Their hands may be tied. We have a student that has been sent to the office 45 times since last August. Most of those were for "aggressive behavior" or fighting. However, I know there are things behind the scenes that make sending him to an alternative school dicey.
Honestly, what I think it would take is a revolt from the other parents demanding that this kid be removed. I've played the "maybe he's just misunderstood game." I've played the "maybe he's too frustrated by his own learning disabilities" game. Of course, most of the powers that be play the "he is ADHD" game. At some point you call BS and move on. I don't care what the problem is anymore. He needs to be gone and there are others just like him.
Hey Scott,
yeah, this is a mess and has been probably since Thomas Jefferson. My daughter's school takes a strong stance against antisocial behavior at least philosophically. My daughter has been plagued by a student that is actually the daughter of a friendly acquaintance. My daughter is completely nonviolent and I don't know who to 'blame' for that...either myself or her overbearing mother but at times, I really wish she would retaliate but I certainly don't encourage that. (I know she's tough enough). We've tried to resolve the issue at ever escalating levels and I guess for now there's no problem (the girl is in another classroom).
Man, that's a tough one. You know there's an unwritten playground rule that if you tattle you're a sissy, but how much abuse should one take before it becomes debilitating. That's actually what I key on, how my daughter seems to be handling the difficulties. Perhaps, the way out is a concerted child AND parent educational awareness program.
Incidentally, my daughter told me that a good friend of hers that is somewhat 'physical' is in training to kick the crap out of an abusive boy who kicked her. I asked her why her friend's parents don't try to help and she said "They don't care". Frankly, I don't really believe that, I really think it's more a case of the "law of the jungle...playground"
Worse yet, we have teachers that are being threatened by bully parents. I know, shocking! What is done with these parents? Nothing. The teachers don't turn them in in fear of angering administration (for showing them up I suppose for doing nothing).
For the record, I am against corporal punishment. I believe you can get your point across in other ways. However, it involves parents and school working together to redirect a child. You don't get by with warnings and it doesn't help when parents disbelieve our every word. The solution is simple. You escalate consequences as behavior escalates. Students should also know there is a point of no return where they literally will not return.
Some of us here are old enough to remember the days when there was no such tolerance for violence, and the teaching staff were commended by parents for "whipping our collective asses" when we precipitated anti-social acts upon each other as students in or around school grounds.
Currently, legal opinions of the past have whittled away the ability of administrators and teachers to issue meaningful countermeasures to prevent such despicable behavior, and I personally know some teachers that have come home beaten with bruises and broken bones but can't fight back for fear of being fired.
As we go forward as a society, it is indeed inevitable that we will be taking steps backward at the same time, and it is doubly regrettable that an entire generation will be trained to ignore the consequences of random acts of violence in schools, of all places!
Wrong lesson for sure...