The debate over the chicken or the egg is a common one even if you don't have a chicken or egg handy. It can be spread to just about any discipline you want. Today, it will be used in the field of politics. As an amateur political scientist (with only a Bachelor's Degree) I love to delve into these political questions of the day. As we have noticed, there has been a sudden breakdown in civility inside of government and by those that participate in the political process. So, the question comes: which came first?
I ask because I simply do not know. We watch the president speak to a joint session of Congress and be called a liar in the middle the speech. We watch House Republicans try to yell down speakers during a floor debate on the health care bill. We see representatives and senators openly question whether the president should really be the president. We've hashed and rehashed their actions.
We also see people at teaparties put things on posters that you would think they would be ashamed to even think. We see people on message boards, blogs, and newspaper sites not only say the most outlandish stuff, but also claim that those that have the temerity to disagree with them are extremists and unAmerican. This has also been building over the past few years.
In between, you have so-called pundits and talking heads who say their own brand of outlandish things. We could quote a plot to put dissenters in internment camps. We could quote a plot where the ever militant peace corps and Americorps would march on Republicans and herd them towards the gulag. Grandma and grandpa are going to be processed and turned into soylent green by death panels. All three groups (politicians, pundits, and "normal" people) have been suggesting such things over the past few months since Obama took over.
The equation is fairly simple. Reponders to my postings have commonly told me it is about racism and I don't doubt that. However, that is not the question for the day. When our little republic was established, there was little doubt about how this all flowed. Discontent always flowed up. Grassroots groups would petition their congressman and then their senators. Maybe they would even make their way up to the president. So, the question remains, where has the discontent started and why has it gotten so ugly?
The Tea Parties aren't really about wasteful government spending. If you believe that I have a plot of oceanfront property in Death Valley to sell. However, the anger is very real. I can buy racism, but who's racism are we talking about? Are we talking about the people inspiring talking heads and politicians or are we talking about talking heads and politicians inspiring the masses. I think we are all fairly certain that there were no 300 pound drug addicted windbags hollering about this and that in 1787. At least, they didn't have an audience if there were. Those windbags were congressmen or senators.
Moreover, there used to be rules to this game. There used to be things you did not do or say. Now, those things are being said and we are called unAmerican or extremist for suggesting that those things shouldn't be done or said. The sad thing is that we know what the congress critters get out it. They inspire the masses and get plenty of donations and get re-elected. We know what the talking heads get out of it. They get more advertisers and more residual money from people picking up their show in syndication. I'm still struggling to figure out what the common person gets out it. They end up propping up people that have no interest in really helping them with their problems. They keep yelling and screaming without realizing that the people they are empowering just screw them over again.
If the people got this train started then they need to realize that sucker has gone off the tracks and is headed for their neighborhood. If the talking heads or the elected officials got this train started then I truly feel sorry for those that have become hot and bothered about Obama and his socialist policies. Suddenly, they all look like that poor woman on MSNBC and the other shows that didn't pay attention to politics before, but now has awoken. She doesn't know what is going on, doesn't know how the process works, but she knows she is good and pissed. Let's hope she is not the posterchild for this country, but I'm afraid she might be.
Something occurred to me the day the teabaggers stormed Congress. The politicians 'advocating' their cause don't chastise them for using gutter slogans because they know those automatic weapons in the audience can be turned against them. The nuts really are running the nuthouse. And 'their' politicians only graceful departure is exile in a foreign country (Australia) or risk facing the guillotine.
scott i did not mean not a zealot like you. i should have better articulated my point of "like scott, whose not a zealot". sorry you thought i was calling YOU a zealot. i was referring to teachers like my cousins in splendora who feel free to spout their zealotry all day long to students. it's continuity for these kids who have zealots spewing zealotry at home (parents, neighbors, family & friends) and fox news on the tv spewing hate, anti obama and pro-tea party zealotry simultaneously. again, calling you a zealot was not in the flow of my thoughts, but reads that way. i'm surprised you did not respond with WTF? instead of such a mild denial!
I would hardly classify myself as a zealot. I'm not sure I will make the 30 years. I don't bring up politics at school because it is inappropriate in my opinion. The authority problem of which you speak goes beyond education. We are told to go to our doctor and demand flomax because we urinate more often than we used to. If the doctor says no then we go to another. What happened to just asking and letting their expertise shine through? I think the problem is not so much ignorance as a gap between that ignorance and what we think we know. In the Socratic method of divining wisdom we are the unwisest of all. The common sense of the past came in knowing what you know and knowing what you don't. This brand of teabaggers purports to know a lot and yet really knows Jack shit.
oh my. not sure about the chicken and egg as it relates to stupid and ignorant.
"Being stupid is inherited. But being ignorant is a choice. Granted lots of stupid people are ignorant too. Some ignorant people are stupid but not all."
my grandparents raised me with "stupid is as stupid does"! from the depression era, they had 3rd grade educations but common sense, gentle yet resilient spirits and compassion. mental impairment might be below 70 IQ but tea party average hovers around 75 at best and falling. no wonder fox studios tried to halt the release of idiocracy, but how did the script get approved? nature vs. nurture was a subject i followed closely in college, in the study of child development. some things i noticed: (1) heavy emphasis on infancy, toddlerhood to 36 months, and early childhood 3-4yrs. (2) some emphasis on elementary aged development 5-10yrs, primarily from a "cognitive or learning" perspective, little on sociological & psychological.
(3) scarce notice of early adolescence (tweens 11-12yrs) from any standpoint and (4) nothing on teens (13-16) and young adults 17-19yrs seemed to fall off the map in the textbooks. inescapable fact that pre-school started out designed for lower classes by liberals, scorned by middle class. daycare became a necessity for working mothers who gave little attention to the finger painting. but the homeschool movement was undertaken by the religious fanatics who comprised the prehistoric tea partyiers. my kids were in elementary during the late 80's to mid 90's when parents accepted black history even if they didn't respect it privately. unlike now, parents respected a teacher's knowledge, but suddenly authority trumps knowledge. all of a sudden the parents with the lowest education level & possibly under 70 IQ "know" more than teachers because beck, palin & rush tell them it's so. yet advertising dollars now aim as low as kids in single digit age groups, tweens are oversexed and overtexted, teens are thrown behind the wheels of cars, at 17yrs can be signed away by a parent for marriage, at 18 they can die for this country. but children remain a captive audience of parents, whether positive or negative. 8 out of my 10 nieces & nephews identify with liberal to moderate ideals, despite my 2 sisters & bro in laws being republican. my brother is a "tea party" member, his wife typical "patriot mommy 912" material (slack jawed supporter of husband). the two nieces with my brother are his children, both minors living at home. his sons reject it entirely, and the oldest has already been kicked out twice for this. of course i am the biggest threat and as welcome in their home as obama could be. many liberals do preach liberal ideology to their children, from mild treehugging to vegetarianism, secularism, even (gasp) religious practice. but unless someone can show me the evidence, i think the tea party movement is like the moral majority from olden days, combined with good old fashioned down home south confederate pride. teachers who are not zealots like scott, face a nearly impossible task today. how not to be witch hunted and burned at the school board's stake. tea party teachers (splendora cousins of mine), and religious conservative teachers have no problem bashing obama publicly and being professionally inappropriate. while fox hunts down a school "pro-america" song as obama indoctrination, what's remaining of the credible or even liberal media do not seek out and cover teachers who had to respect bush when he was president, and simply continue teaching respect for the office of president. hopefully the current captive audience grows up like the kids in my family, rejecting the tea party madness. and i don't give a good damn what "maddie" or any other tea party baby or exploited child says in defense of their white, wealthy, way of life!
Let me throw this out there: ignorance I get. Heck, I combat it everyday (haha get it, haha) but the abject racism I'm not getting people. I thought people knew better than that. I didn't think we were past it altogether, but I thought we were a lot further along.
As for ignorance, if you want to see it then go to some school board meetings. You have people that want to preach abstinence or no sex education. You get people that want to ban books. You get people that think we're overpaid and lazy and those people are on the board!
I think the major difference is in how people view details. For the ignorance based, details are to be feared. They can't be trusted. That's why this "2000 page bill" thing has become such a weapon for the right. Even intelligent people ask why we need 2000 pages. The rest of us know the need for details. All you need to do is look at Wall Street and other so-called fortune 500 companies and how they are able to wiggle out of regulation. That is why more regulation is added folks.
That's the misunderstanding here. Conservatives think we regulate just because we like government. Heck, no one really likes government. Some of us just know it's necessary because captains of industry are greedy bastards for the most part.
arte: Well put. Being stupid is inherited. But being ignorant is a choice. Granted lots of stupid people are ignorant too. Some ignorant people are stupid but not all.
My 8 year experience in government, on a very local level, gave me the same return. The past year has cast a spotlight on the ignorance and stupidity more than ever. I hate so say it but I don't think we are as smart and informed or as tolerant as our parents. I hope that trend can be reversed soon.
lol my apologies about harry potterism, i use the books in a quarterly volunteer literacy program i started in '99. believe it or not 4 of the original 25 kids covered by the grant still participate, online. but the star wars works for me as well, because from the original in '77 to the cartoons i'm versed. joe wilson should have faced scorn from both parties, he was "first in one category that not only disrespected the historic civility in the institution of congress, but being first simply means there will be a second. as far as i can tell, party leaders will not censure him or even fine him like the NBA commissioner would for crossing a ref on a technical. when i learned he was a colonel from the military, i was even more shocked, as i would expect an ex-military to possess more discipline and restraint. that's why "conduct unbecoming an officer" is one of the worst things to be accused of, much less be publicly guilty of. as far as the tea party, i'm glad they're starting to register as an official party like they did in florida. cannibalizing the republican party is shameful enough to me because i actually remember a time when (hope nobody's read this far) there were a few honorable republicans. but now they can get in line to devour the libertarian party, joe lieberman, and anyone else hiding under the "independent" movement. ron paul? signing posters at the houston rally saturday, did he share his ideas about legalizing pot? i also agree with you that liberalism has meant hope to me as far back as i can recall in my 47yrs. my grandparents although not active were civil rights supporters, anti-vietnam war, and openly wept for mlk, jfk & bobby. i grew up with a "colored" drinking fountain in the st. joseph professional building, and watched racial beatings and riots when aldine desegregated their sr. high by busing eisenhower sr. students from acres homes. i like being a democrat, with stupak AND the women's caucus threatening to stop each other. because they mean to do so through VOTING or NOT VOTING. unlike republicans who put up a "wanted" poster of dissenters. thanks scott for another great discussion.
Let's take the jackass that yelled liar at Obama during the address. America Left (XM) made a big deal of the fact that his opponent raised a great deal of money based on that event. I was happy until I heard that he had raised about three or four times that amount.
When people not only don't suffer the ill effects of boorish behavior, but somehow benefit then we know something is wrong. I have to sheepishly plead ignorance to the Harry Potter reference, but it's essentially the same way Hitler came into power (oops, Cantor doesn't like those references). Instead of Harry Potter, I choose Star Wars. The modern GOP (and maybe historical GOP) feeds off of people's anger like the Dark Side. They wait until you are good and angry before they suck you in with their rhetoric. Liberalism has always been more about hope than anything else.
In terms of whether it will play out like the Harry Potter book depends on whether things improve. If the economy improves and situations overseas improve then this little movement will die out. What I find more fascinating is that people like that woman are coming out of the woodwork. How did they suddenly decide they were angry? It's almost as if someone told them to be angry.
a current "chicken or egg" for me is cameras on the house floor. somehow listening to the audio tapes on the debates over medicare would have been so much better to look at the stupid racist faces. and if i had not seen what the white republican woman haters did right off the bat saturday morning to the democratic women, you could not have convinced me it happened. but i cannot help the nagging feeling i have that the decorum is eroding and egos are fueled, partially by cameras and no names trying to get their mugs on. interested in your ideas about this. about the tea party i said it like this, they are like the death eaters in harry potter, book 4. started out covert, behind the scenes, infiltrated even the ministry of magic (govt) and ran their terrorism underground. but by book 4 the masks came off and they came out of the shadows into broad daylight. emboldened, openly terrorizing and aiming to destroy what was good, imposing their evil on the weak by gaining strength through fear and random acts of destruction. by definition tea party is approaching domestic terrorism status.
Many of you know I spent my career in government. I've been to more late night meetings, arguing over budget issues and arcane governmental procedures and projects than I want to think about.
But the absolute worst nights of my life were when I was confronted by angry mobs of stupid people, people who probably hadn't voted in years, who probably would have trouble figuring out where to mark their "x" on the ballot, being unable to sign their own names. And the U.S. is full of these people, ignorant to the point of being downright stupid (Sparkle's ears must surely be burning). These are the people who shout down rational discourse, who have no use for reason or facts or explanations, have no patience for anyone who might know something more about a subject than they do (which would probably be anyone else in the room on most occasions).
I've been called a liar, physically threatened by obnoxious drunks, cussed out by little old white-haired ladies. People somehow believe that their status as a citizen (which is sure as hell not the same thing as a voter or a taxpayer) qualifies them to be abusive and offensive. Civility goes out the window when people feel resentful or abused or ignored. But it is these people - demonstrated by the teabaggers, people who have deliberately ignored the political process, failed to educate themselves about the facts, failed to do any of the heavy lifting of democracy who are the problem.
I'll say what I couldn't say to them when they were in my face at a public hearing - go fuck yourself.
I will also add that for all the advancements made in the last fifty or so years, including victory in the Cold War and social advancements including rising affluence for many in our society, we Americans have a small voice and little say in how we are governed. Most people distrust politicians and government to do the right thing. This is where I think the rising anger comes from. Especially when you add elected officials that seem to not have the answers or not willing to do the right thing let alone make any sense half the time. Always out for themselves, never the common folk. Also, I agree with Carguy.. erosion of the community and a society constantly on the move have contributed to the unrest and distrust of one another.
I will add one think I think is important. MOBILITY. People move more often than they used to. We lived in the same house for 20+ years on a block where we knew EVERYBODY. We knew ALL the neighbors.
Now, I'm living in the same house for 30+ years but I know about 4 sets of neighbors only. And not well. All my old neighbors, except a few, have long since moved and been replaced, some several times over. My best friend lives again in the old neighborhood but it's the same there. He knows and is friends with 3-4 sets of neighbors. Not like the old days.
It is worse than before. Now Tea bag rallies, next will be cross burnings. I think the discontent comes from the fact that politicians are not listening to the people. They think it's their god given right to rule the roost and make their decisions without any regard for the people who elected them to office. Most people are frustrated, angry and scared and are taking it to the extreme, blaming anyone who is an easy target. Easy to blame liberals, Obama and DEMS when you have 24X7 hate news and tireless angry rants from talk radio. I don't see anyone stepping up from the GOP to discount these people who constantly egg on the hate and anger. Some of it is grandstanding as well by politicians and is out of line, totally classless and utterly distasteful. Some people have no couth, common sense or decency left.
It just seems worse now than before. Nixon almost seems respectable by comparison. It's gotten to the point where I can't talk to republicans anymore.
It's Nixon's fault. Him along with Haldemann and Erlichman and John Mitchell. THEY caused us to BEGIN to doubt our political leaders. Then one by one, governors, legislators, county judges, mayors, another president or two, got caught LYING to us. Lying to us on BIG stuff. They showed they didn't trust US. We returned that distrust in like manner.
And let's not forget the "Me generation". Me, me, me, me, me. It's all about ME. Civility became compromised. Rap music, hate music, being a "gangsta" was reputable. and, to add to it, police misconduct. Judicial misconduct.
Nobody trusted anybody and nobody respected anybod else's rights.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong.